“A lot of the stuff I do is below the radar”

We talk to Tristan Osborne, the recently elected MP for Chatham and Aylesford

Tristan Osborne was elected as the Labour MP for Chatham and Aylesford in 2024. Having unsuccessfully run for parliament in 2015, he had served as a Medway Council councillor and cabinet portfolio holder before standing down in 2024. We met him at the Mood Lift Cafe in Snodland to discuss the differences between those parliamentary campaigns, Reform’s recent election successes, whether he can unwind, and much more.

Chatham and Aylesford MP Tristan Osborne

Running for Parliament is something you did before. You've worked on it, and harboured that ambition for a long time. How does it feel now you’re there?
I'm here, and I'm smiling, so you can probably read that energy. I am really proud. If look at my career, the police, teaching, helping people is something I'm personally motivated by. This job gives you that opportunity to help people. Going into the office every day, speaking to my constituency team, how many cases have we done, how many people have we helped? I can't help everyone. I can't right every wrong sometimes. There are things which are frustrating in the job. The job is also incredibly multifaceted, much more than I'd ever envisioned before. It's almost like three jobs in one. Having to go to Parliament and be a parliamentarian and speaking and the events around that, and then being a constituency MP, which is being almost like a super councillor, making sure you're working with local people and teams and residents groups. Then you've got the pressures of decisions when policies come down, which impact different people in a good way sometimes and other times, people don't like the policy position. You're there as a lightning rod for either people's happiness or discontent, and that can be... I had experienced it as a councillor, but it's nowhere near the same level of engagement that I have at the moment.

Chatham and Aylesford is a fairly unusual constituency in that it goes across a boundary, with one area within Medway and another under Kent County Council, urban and rural. Have you noticed the difference in terms of the people that live there?
No, fundamentally people have the same concerns. If I speak to a parent in Sondland, they want their kids to go to a good school. They want to have roads they can drive on which are not potholes. They want a GP service that they can access when they need. They want to have an economy which is growing, so they can have more money in their pockets. All of these things are just shared. It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are, what class you are, what background you come from, what you're doing right now. All of those issues, a good home life, stability in the economy, these are all shared priorities.
There is a bit of a postcode difference in terms of the services which are being delivered. Over in this part of the constituency, I get fewer issues raised with Maidstone Hospital than I do with Medway Hospital. If you look at their CQC (Care Quality Commission) rates, you might see why. Maidstone Hospital is doing very well, quite successfully run, has a number of innovative IT systems and ways of working which I've been to visit. Medway has been struggling, a widely known position of their CQC report. Over here we have real issues with nuisance bikes and nuisance vehicles. That is shared with other parts of the constituency. But whereas Kent Police in Medway seem to have been doing a lot of work on that, over here, they have needed a bit of reminding that some of these problems are manifest. I think that's probably unique as a Medway MP because I've got to deal with two heads of police, two heads of NHS, two leaders of councils, two chief executives. I've almost got to have double the relationships, which is great, but also very tiring.

As well as being an MP, do you have any additional paid roles?
No. There was a very brief interregnum period between me being a teacher and an MP, which I declared. For two weeks, there was a salary overlap, where my salary at my former school had to be paid for me for July. I also had a period where schools allow you to have holiday periods, and they backdate a lot of that to the summer period. There was a period where I was still getting a teacher's salary, but that has now wound down for obvious reasons. But I have no other paid roles. I'm not a consultant for anyone, and I'm very proud to say that that's never going to happen, either. I've worked in public affairs previously, and I'm well aware that is a slippery slope. Keir has been really clear that you shouldn't have a second job. I agree with him entirely on that.

Do you miss teaching?
I do. You probably get a sense of that when you look at my Twitter and my social media presence. Part of what I want to do is to work with young people. I’ve had interviews with student journalists. I met the Sea Cadets yesterday as part of the VE Day events because they're the future of the armed forces. For me working with young people is still really important. I can't do it as much anymore, what I can do is promote their successes. You'll get that theme from me as an MP that young people and education still remain a core element of me. It just looks different because I can't be in the classroom anymore. I won't lose that because education is critical for society. If we can create a population of educated people that are happy in their work, society will work better. There'll be more people doing jobs that they enjoy and generally speaking, educated societies are more productive and tolerant. If I don't get re-elected into this job next time, I might even go back into it.

Did you have any conversation with (former Chatham and Aylesford MP) Tracey Couch after the election?
Yeah, Tracey's been wonderful. We disagreed with each other politically on a number of areas. I stood against her once. I remember she won, which was for me at the time… look, that's democracy. She's been very positive. I know that there's been some work behind the scenes with her and Labour MPs on the Football Governance Bill, which we have taken and delivered in Parliament just last week. She did a very clean handover, and all of her former staffers have been very courteous with me. It was a very friendly transition. She's a resident of mine now, she has the power of the pulpit, and I hope she uses that as well.

Following your election, there was a by-election for your former council seat in Rochester, which Reform won. Why didn’t that go well?
It went well in the sense that for a local by-election, there was high turnout. I'll always look at the light first before I look at the end result. More people participated. That's really good because it shows the electorate were engaged. The result wasn't what I was hoping for. Obviously, I was looking to get two great Labour candidates selected. The result was maybe a canary in the coal mine for what we've seen across Kent and elsewhere in the country. The same frustrations were coming up on the doorstep around the pace of change, people not perceiving the improvements in their lives, the cost-of-living issues that still persist, the access to GP surgeries, the concerns around migration, which were genuine among people. You take the hit for that because you're in charge, and the result was not a move to the Conservatives. That is actually the story of both cycle elections in Kent, where there’s no Kemi Badenoch recovery here. In fact, the complete opposite. The Tories are retrenching significantly, and both Medway by-elections have the same message.

Is there anything we can learn from the KCC result about the future of Medway and Kent, or is it too soon?
Lessons obviously need to be learnt. Medway, had the election been on the same day, I suspect would have seen a very similar result. That's not an unreasonable supposition because if you look at all the councils across the country, wherever they are, Reform have done well in particular areas with particular demographics and areas where there are demographics similar to in Medway: the age profile, the education profile, Reform have done well in those areas. There are absolute lessons, and the lessons for Labour are very clear.
We have got to start delivering on that agenda for change and I'm just as frustrated as everyone else. We are passing laws in Parliament. I want to get that Section 59 legislation live, so I can confiscate these damn nuisance bikes and vehicles that are causing a blight on people's lives. It just takes time. The law processes in this country are deliberately designed so that everyone gets a say. Bad laws get scrutinised and ripped apart. The process takes months to go through bills and everything else. The public gets frustrated, they just want to see things change quicker. We've got to improve our NHS. We've started, but we're nowhere near where we need to be. We've got to grow the economy. The economy is critical. We've had two massive trade deals this week. I know the right wing have split over whether they love it or they loathe it. That's their problem, but I think this is great news for our country. It shows you we're open to the world and willing to say, ‘biggest emerging market, growing economy, we want a piece of that action, thank you.’ What is not to like about that? And the USA, traditional partner, we’ve got big tariff reductions on goods such as steel and car manufacturing, big businesses in this country. It's great some of the stuff we're doing, but we're not doing it quick enough. Some people's perceptions about some of the tough decisions we've made have gone down badly. Maybe we can learn some lessons from the communication of that.

When you look at Britain's place in the world and what is going on geopolitically, should we be re-evaluating the post-Brexit European relationship?
Look, I voted for remain. To this day, I believe in stronger international partnerships with our biggest trading partner, and I say this as an ex-geography teacher as well. We are part of the European continent. We have shared history with Europe that goes back for thousands of years. You can't extricate ourselves from relationships with our biggest trading partners, and we share the same issues that they did because we share that physical geographical boundary. We do need to look at how we can smooth trade and relationships with our European partners. We have been very antagonistic since Brexit, and what has it delivered us? Tepid growth, anger and a feeling that they're an enemy. They're not an enemy. These people are NATO allies. They serve with us in conflicts around the world. They work with us on peace initiatives at the UN Security Council. We have shared problems and there needs to be shared solutions. I've written a letter with a number of other colleagues, saying that we need to look at our trading relationship with Europe and try and remove some of those frictions to make it easier for our businesses to trade, make it easier for musicians to go and celebrate their successes abroad like they used to. I don't see a negative in that. I understand some people will see that as contentious. I don't.

One of the inevitable responses to these elections has been whether Labour was better off turning right or turning left. There's been talk of ‘Blue Labour.’ Is this a term that you recognise?
The party is a very healthy broad tent. When people start saying, ‘We purge these people, and you purge those people,’ it's all just a monotone voice. I think you're getting a sense now that that's absolutely rubbish. There are a diversity of views in the Labour movement. Each of them will come from different perspectives with different stakeholder groups. That’s healthy, that's good for democracy, all parties should have that plurality of views. I'm not worried about people articulating their views. I think that's a good thing. I don't think it's simply an argument of left versus right. I think it is issue-related. I don't think it's simply saying, ‘Well, we need to stop looking at how we get people into work’ on things that we're considering at the moment around PIP. It's not simply about that. It's not simply ignoring the fact that migration is a topic that has been raised on the doorstep. The same issues are shared between residents of Chatham and Snodland: Growing the economy, having people in stable jobs, low mortgages and economic stability around prices. It's having good schools, it's having safer communities with more police and real visibility around people who are victims and are getting justice. People are going to play games with this agenda, but the reality is we've known climate change has been an issue for 30-40 years. We had to borrow £60bn to subsidise the oil and gas sector only three years ago because of geopolitical instability. We do need to make that transition. Many other countries in the world are already doing it, and it's good for us to have energy security. Fundamentally, we're on the right page. The pace of change is not where the public are happy with, and that would include migration.
They're not feeling that we have a grip of that at the moment, and I think we do need, in a professional way, to have a system which works for those who are seeking to be refugees because they are ultimately people where they're being persecuted so they're very vulnerable. They're human beings, and always be treated like that, but also say the system we have at the moment is not fair. It's not working for them if they have to sit for two years on a waiting list before their asylum process can be claimed. The public perception of that isn't acceptable either, that these people are housed in particular situations and we need to get our system right so people are genuinely right to have those views. These people have that concern, and that is a genuine public concern, and we need to acknowledge that. It's a conversation which I need to have with colleagues all of the time. Yet this is a genuine concern of very reasonable people, not just people you don't like. I think the public needs to have that, and I think they're willing to have that conversation, but there should be no red lines on areas to talk about.

Is there also an issue of successive governments failing to tell a positive story of immigration and the positive responses that immigrants have made to all communities?
I agree with you entirely. The largest proportion of the immigration into this country is legal. It's people coming to work and they contribute to our society. Ethnic minorities are very entrepreneurial. They tend to be younger people, so they're not using the health service ostensibly. They go on to set up businesses which go on to employ people. This is great news. We've great examples of that in Medway, where we've got lots of different restaurants and retail businesses that are springing up with very entrepreneurial people. A lot of the NHS is staffed by people whom we brought in from abroad. A lot of teachers come from abroad as well. There's a really positive narrative here around what people from different diverse backgrounds and where they come from helping our communities. Where people have a concern, and this is where the entire debate has become slightly toxified, is the illegal migration, the perception that people are coming in. The service that is supposed to be reviewing their status and saying whether they're refugees or not, is not functioning. Then we seem to be getting a number of people that are illegally crossing, which is complete exploitation, as is people smuggling, and it needs to stop. If we don't deal with that, the public will continue to say the system isn't working, and they might vote for alternatives as a result. That will be their decision-making.

You stood for Chatham and Aylesford in 2015. Was there a significant difference between those campaigns? How do you compare them?
I can answer that in three ways. Organisationally, ironically, the 2015 campaign was far more organised because I was a target candidate. I was part of what was called the 106 group of candidates. I was given an organiser. I had three years running time. I could put my name out there, build those relationships. By the way, the same relationships I was able to build now come from that period, luckily for me. I had all of that running time to get to know the public. I know this sounds weird, but walking the roads, getting to see every street and then getting to understand this street has these views, and this area has that view. Whereas this time, I was dropped in six weeks beforehand. I had expressed an interest to be the candidate months before, but I think the party's processes were slightly slower in non-target seats because we weren't considered a party priority at that point.
From a messaging perspective, it was that the elections were chalk and cheese. This time, knocking on the same doors, it was very clear the public were sick and tired of the Tories. The result was the result. It was manifest on the doorstep, votes were coming to us, a lot of Tories were sitting at home, some were going Reform. It was a really clear element that the Truss economic calamity had had an impact on people's mindsets and they were willing to give us a chance. Whereas in 2015, I warned, and I got recorded as saying this by a journalist without permission, that if Miliband was losing the economic argument, we were at risk of having a Conservative government unless we really focused on that and the result in 2015 was, guess what, a Conservative majority government based on the economy. Also, this time I think the plan for change is completely deliverable and one thing I'm really excited about in power now is we're actually interested to deliver that, whereas in 2013-14, it was still at the end of the financial crash period. There was a lot of instability in Europe as well around the Greek Eurozone crisis. I think we're in a better position now to deliver on that. I'm older and more mature as well, less involved in spats than I used to be when I was in my twenties. You might say that's not good copy for you. I might say that's great copy for me, because I don't get any copies.

Do you feel that whilst Labour had a great night, given your result was fairly marginal, if Tracey had stood again, do think that would have made a difference?
It absolutely made a difference, and we call it the incumbency effect. That isn't unique to Tracey, that is the same when anyone has a positive track record, and Tracy did have a positive track record. She's very well-liked by the community. She delivered for lots of people, and her personality was effusive. There's no doubt about it that she would have had an incumbency effect. Now, what that would have looked like, I don't know. Would that have been sufficient to get over the line? I can't prove or disagree, but definitely there would have been an incumbency effect for Tracey.

Being a parliamentarian is fairly all-encompassing. What do you do to unwind?
Some of this is actually in the public domain because I'm on some all-party parliamentary groups. I am a big fan of computer gaming. I always have been. I tend to prefer gaming which is positive. I don't like shooting games or death games. I like to build things, be that Civilization VII at the moment, which I'm playing. It's all about, some might say, being a politician in charge of a country's economy and working out how to grow it. Cities Skylines II is another game I'm playing. In my APPG for gaming. I'm trying to promote the sector. You'll find a lot of my questions, written questions, about the games industry, encouraging sector development. The reason why is because the UK has been one of the centres for computer gaming for decades. We created these games in the 80s. All these big-ticket IP games, through the Amstrad system and Acorn and all of these different platforms. We've got a proud history of game creation and some of the biggest games in the world, GTA, FIFA, Football Manager, these are multi-billion-pound enterprises, and they are about the future as well. That's the reason why I visited Dovetail Games.
I'm interested in the oceans and nature. As a geography teacher, I'm passionate about the world around me. The oceans, in particular, fascinate me because they're not being talked about, yet they make up two-thirds of the Earth. We have very scant knowledge of them. I know David Attenborough amazingly has just done a fantastic film. I haven't seen it yet because I haven't been to the cinema. He is hopefully going to shine a torch on the importance of the ocean and also the damage that we're doing. I want people to be aware of some of the fishing practices that we are doing, decimating ecosystems. If this was happening on land, people would be flabbergasted and aghast. I'm doing a lot of work with the oceans.
Wine drinking. You might say, ‘That sounds a bit like a jolly.’ It is not. It's about the sector. Kent, Sussex and Surrey are the centre of what is becoming a very successful enterprise. I've got a number of vineries in my constituency, and they are growth areas. The British wine sector has grown by almost 120% in five years. It's not just sparkling wine. It's white wine, and it's red wines as well. These are businesses which are the very cutting edge of something which could be very exciting because of the climate changing and becoming warmer, we are being able to grow grapes now and become a player. Now I'm not saying we're going to be the next France because they have state subsidies, but having a growing wine industry, it's important that, as a rural enterprise, it also protects green spaces and land. Many of these vineries are extremely well run, and they do look after the natural environment around them. They act as ecotourism, people come to their restaurants, they spend money there, that goes into looking after the locality and the environment around the area.
I'd be really keen, because Kent is a centre for this, to try and promote our sector nationally and to get some of our wines being drunk in embassies around the world should be the go-to. Restaurants as well, in my view, should have English wines and consider English wines to be on their wine list. It’s not just about me going and enjoying a Pinot Noir. I'm very careful with these events to not accept free bottles of wine or anything like that. I don't do that. I go along, and we discuss their business and how I can promote that economy. And I work cross party on this, with Conservatives, with Liberals, with others too. We are very keen to ensure the sector gets the opportunity it deserves.
I asked what you did to unwind, and you listed work-related activity.
Sorry, yeah, right.
I understand the connection to your work.
That's the advantage of being in my job.
Are you unwinding?
Probably not. I'm reliably told by my parents that I need to take a holiday all of the time, which is basically code for you're tired and knackered. I know I need to do that. I'm not great at unwinding. I'm not going to lie, I find it tricky. That isn't me just giving the cliché, ‘I love to work, and I work to live.’ I do need to find a better work-life balance on that. I do enjoy films. I go to the gym occasionally. Being a teacher was intense, but it forced you to unwind at other parts of the year because you weren't in the classroom. The summer holidays, for instance, you literally had nothing to do because you'd just done the exams, whereas this job is a bit intense. There's not a single day, the exception of maybe Christmas Day, where you're not dealing with an emergency issue or someone contacting you. I have a fantastic team around me who take a lot of the casework off me. I thank my team every day.

Chatham High Street has been recognised as being in trouble for a long time now. Are you part of any initiatives to improve the high street?
Chatham High Street, just on a technicality, is actually in the Rochester and Strood constituency. I know the boundaries and to this day think they are quite weird. I've got Thomas Aveling School and Rochester Airport in my constituency, even though Thomas Aveling School is quintessentially Rochester, and Chatham High Street and the Dockyard are actually in Rochester and Stood. But most people in their day-to-day lives do not give a hoot about where boundaries are from a parliamentary perspective, so long as you are within the periphery. My office is in Chatham Dockyard for instance, because it is a quintessential Chatham address, and in my view, it's a very sensible place to be for security as well. Chatham High Street does have issues. Loads of positive things are happening there though. Lots of capital investment, the Paddock's been opened, got the James Williams Centre opening as well, which will transfer people into a modern setting for the NHS. We've got the new business hub up there, which I think is proving to be a real success in getting people into that space and co-working practices which are happening. We've got lots of the urban regeneration around the former Staples unit, and those properties are selling well. We've got the Brook Theatre renovation, we've got St John's Church improvements.
Given none of it is actually in your area, do you have any high streets in your area?
Other than this one (Snodland), which is not the same type of high street, I would say in terms of scale, no. I am a very suburban seat. However, Lauren (Edwards, MP for Rochester and Strood) and me do have a very good relationship, and she's very happy for me to talk about Chatham High Street mainly because 80 to 90 % of the people who go there are probably my residents because Rochester residents will go to Rochester, Strood residents will go to Strood. I shouldn't be afraid to talk about Medway Maritime Hospital, which is technically not in Chatham and Aylesford. I should be able to talk about the High Street.

An area you speak out often about ties into your previous Medway Council cabinet member position about community safety and enforcement. I don't see as much action on your background in teaching and education. Is that a conscious choice?
That's interesting. I'm on the APPG for schools. I suppose it's because the challenges at the moment in my constituency are around social behaviour and crime. I suppose you'll see me more on the ground talking about that. That being said, I have met all the schools in my area. We're doing a School Streets campaign. I've been very open about my support for those. I've met all of the headteachers, but some of these schools don't want these private conversations I've had with them to spill out into the public domain. When I have conversations with them, they want me to make their case, but they don't necessarily want the fanfare of that in the public domain, and you have to respect that. A lot of the stuff I do is below the radar.
Because of house building expanding in Lidsing and Gibraltar Farm, there is going to have to be a conversation about another secondary school at some point in Medway. The numbers clearly show that in that part of my constituency we have a problem in terms of where future provision will be. I will be talking about new provision very shortly around that secondary school for that particular part of my constituency, and I'm also doing a lot of work on SEN and SEND transport as casework, but you are correct. I did speak on the Schools Bill, but most ofthe work I've been articulating nationally is around antisocial behaviour, is around the Tobacco and Vapes Bill, which I sat on the Bill Committee. That bill actually has this element of schools within it too, because obviously, it's kids that we're trying to stop access to vape. I will say that I am still doing lots of work with education but not necessarily as visible as some of the other issues.

You mentioned your relationship with social media has changed, from your younger days.
It certainly has. It's a diplomatic way of saying it.
When you heard that a story was breaking about a Medway MP's former social media use, were you surprised it wasn't you?
Look, I love the job that you do. I used to be a Medway blogger ten years ago. ‘Musings from Medway’, top 20 in the politics, for instance. I have done that job, and I celebrate everything you do, even when it’s about me. I accept that that happens. That is what is healthy in a democracy, even if I might be on the negative end of it. The tweets that were sent, Lauren has apologised for. She has owned up to them. She was a lot younger when she did that, and those views were made in a different context, she wasn't an MP etc. I accept that on face value that she's made an error of judgement. That isn't to say I haven't done silly things on social media. I have. I have got in trouble sometimes on Facebook for expressing views as well in different ways. I'm not anyone who can cast the first stone. We're in an age of social media now. I have to be more careful, but I still think it's really important to engage people on social media.
Even on X?
Yes, I do actually, because that's where people are. I accept that the owner doesn't agree with me. I might not agree with the owner of Audi on some issues, it doesn't mean I don't drive an Audi. You could choose to boycott things if you want to, and I fully respect people who make that call and their reasons, or you could accept that there are lots of people there and on Instagram or other forums. It's just another way of engaging people, whether or not I agree with the owner or not is kind of immaterial, but that's a judgment that I've made personally. Twitter is still an excellent medium, and I will remain on it unless things change markedly. But I am concerned about its drift, and I am worried that the owner is sometimes allowing debates which veer into fake news and other types of tropes. I routinely block people who are abusive. In my view, if you don't agree with someone or don't like what they say or they're nasty, just block them. There is a function for that. You don't need to give your reasons, just do it.

In Chatham you are neighboured by two Labour MPs, former council colleagues with a good working relationship. In the Aylesford area, you're neighboured by two Conservative MPs. Do you have a working relationship with them?
I do. Helen Grant (MP for Maidstone and Malling) and me are working on the blue badges campaign at the moment. I visited her constituency last week to talk at the Invicta Valley Park School Speaking Competition. Again, education linked. Former colleagues of mine at Strood Academy now work there. I visited Maidstone Hospital about a month ago to look at their new innovation with technology. They're putting microchips on hands now, they've got a flow system which is inspiring and could revolutionise A&E movements and flow in hospitals which I'm really excited about. Tom (Tugendhat, MP for Tonbridge) and Helen have been very professional in my engagement. I've not had a single issue with them at all, and I think because they're more experienced than me, they know that just having positive relationships with colleagues gets you a lot further, and I think there's a level of respect as well on issues. Historically I might have fallen out with some people, and usually, it's philosophical differences of view, not based on personality.

In a world in which debate does descend into abuse, as a member of the LGBT community, what are your feelings regarding the recent ruling around the trans community?
I am a member of LGBT community, and I'm getting a lot of correspondence on this from, as you would say, people with who I've had former professional relationships and the trans community, who are a very strong voice in Medway. I've worked as a councillor to get the pride flag on Rochester Castle, which I was very pleased about, and seeing Pride as a very successful private sector funded event. Of course, people have been messaging me about that.
The Supreme Court is an independent organisation. We have to respect its jurisdiction. Sometimes, people agree with them, and they don't agree with them. Our job now is to say, you were given that decision, you've looked at all the elements of the law, you are professional individuals who've got years of qualification, you have now come to that conclusion. The next stage is we need the Equality and Human Rights Commission to come out with the guidance so that we know how to implement that.
But I noticed two days ago in the House of Commons, there was a vote around whether data should be biological sex or should data accept the fact that people might transition over the course of their lives. The Tories said no, there has to be biological sex at birth. We've said no, Gender Recognition Certificate means that you can change, and your data is stored according to your GRC. Because it's not a biological safe space, so therefore it should be based on your identity.
There are lots of elements of Labour in government acting in the interest of the trans community. We will ban trans conversion therapy, that is in our manifesto, and I am making sure that we're going to deliver on that and working with colleagues behind the scenes to ensure that that's pursued with vigour, but we also have to accept that we don't win all the fights immediately as well. I'll finish on this, one of the comments I made to an individual was about equal marriage, and I said you didn't win your fight on equal marriage in the first legislative change. We had to introduce civil partnerships first. That took 10 years, debates had to happen in the public. You had to bring people with you, not antagonise people, not labelling them, accusing them being bigots, to have that conversation with the public over a protracted period of time, bring them with you on the argument and then eventually you'll win.
Politics sometimes isn't about the quick win, progressively changing viewpoints over time in a reasonable way and I'm a big believer in reasonableness. I think that the trans community absolutely needs to continue to advocate strongly. They need to hold my feet to the fire and every other MP’s feet to the fire. I understand their disappointment, but now the fight begins, and they need to go out there and make their case, and they need to articulate that in a civil society, and then we'll see what happens. My worry is if civil society and some of the right-wing nationalists start to close down these conversations with this idea of gender ideology and things like that, which I'm beginning to see coming through in parts of Europe with far-right groups. We're seeing in this country the banning of flags. That is not healthy in a plural society where we're measured in a liberal democracy by how we treat our minorities. I will always defend minorities, even if they're not my own, to my dying breath because a society that doesn't do that ends up in a very dark place in my view.

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Footnotes

This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.